PLATO
In what year was the text written?
380 before Chr.
In what year was the text published?
380 before Chr.
During the time the book was published, what were the foremost developments of the society
which the author was part of?
Ancient greek where there was a direct democracy.
Lecture:
The great debate about justice
Puzzle:
- why do you obey your society’s rules?
- does obeying your society’s rules make you a just person?
What makes us decide to obey a rule or not? Is it possible to disobey some rules and still be a just
person etc?
Key themes and concepts:
- justice according to the sophist
(protagoras & Thrasymachus)
- Theory of the soul
- Division of labour
- Justice in context
- Allegory of the cave
- Role of education
- Philosophers as rules (guardians)
Greek Enlightenment: traditional assumptions were questions by different groups such as:
- The Sophists
- Historians
, - Dramatists
The sophist:
A group of professional intellectuals that introduced new methods of thinking and debating. They also
charged fees for their teachers. They could charge fees because they guaranteed their students success.
Foremost question:
Is it truly better to act in accordance with justice in society?
These rules are after all man made.
There were many differences in opinion among them.
Protagoras (sophist)
- traditional view regarding morals and politics.
- for a society to function it is critical that everybody knows how to behave correctly: that you
respect other people and that you are willing to fulfill obligations towards them. These trades
can be learned.
- there is a difference between practical matters like building a ship and practising medicine:
only experts can do these, and public matters that can be taught to all.
- Acting in a just manner is taught in society by fear of punishment.
- all are able to reach a basic level;
- some have greater talent and excel.
Talented politicians can be compared to talented musicians.
- justice will be learned in a society in the same way that children learn a language. However,
some people are able to excel and others are only able to reach a basic level.
- He sees no difficulty to different society adhering different notions of justice. There is not
one correct standard of justice that exists -> between different parts of the world you will
have different versions of justice.
- Teachers have a crucial role because they can provide talented politicians.
- Each society determines what justice is and what it means to act in a just manner. Something
that today is part of our elections: candidates debate what the best version of justice should be
and the electors vote.
- Problem: what can be done when a consensus what justice is is absent in a society?
- social relativism where each society can determine its own standard of justice seems to offer a
clear path of society where justice is merely the preference of its rulers.
,Thrasymachus:
Refutes Protagoras and states that justice is merely the advantage of the stronger over the week. Rules
are made by those who are stronger. Justice is the advantage of the stronger. The weak are those who
abide by justice. Thus, those who act in a just manner, act according and to the advantage of the
strong.
In such a society, injustice will be preferred by the weak because it offers more personal
advantage. Thrasymachus bases his view on justice on a narrow view of society. In his view society is
made out of individuals who have no regard for a common interest. All members of society are
always in competition with each other. As a result, politics is conflictual where all manipulate each
other.
These two sophist show opposing views of the debate concerning justice.
Socrates
- we only know him through the writings of others. He did not write anything down but took
part in dialogue.
- He dedicated his life to philosophy and did not charge for his teachings.
- He was the first to turn away from the concern of the nature to dedicate himself to human
affairs.
- He redefines justice by making it intrinsically valuable. He made a case for acting in a just
manner regardless of what the material benefits were.
- Society should seek to adhere to the undeniable truth.
- Socrates would pay with his life for the innovative view regarding justice which finds it
expression in the use of laws.
- He was charged for not believing in the greek gods and corrupting the youth through his
teachings.
- Through his admission of knowing nothing, he knew more than everybody else. “The only
true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing”.
- He is aware that the many have the power to put him to death, he does not feel the need to
convince them of his innocence. Rather he provokes them during the trial. The many
according to socrates do only what occurs to them regardless of the fact if they act according
to the truth or according to evil. They have no conception of intrinsic justice.
- Laws however are settled and every commitment to justice is seen through commitment to
laws.
- justice thus has an intrinsic value and the laws should be an expression of that intrinsic value.
, Plato
- one of socrates’ students was involved in an anti democratic movement that consisted of
oligarchs known as the thirty tyrants. We do not know if Plato was involved in this conflict.
- He established a school of philosophy known as the academy.
- the main question of the republic “why is justice better than injustice” brings along other
topics that are dealt with.
- only a dialogical conversation leads to the truth.
- Why did socrates speak for plato ?
- Plato introduces the reader to an ideal city he calls Callipolis. He thus introduces a utopian
account of the goodlife.
Theory of the soul
The manner in which an individual functions is bound to his character. The character follows from his
soul.
- Plato distinguishes between rational, spirited and appetitive elements of the soul. These
elements should each perform their proper task. Thus the rational element rules. The spirited
element makes sure the individual is courageous when he needs to be. And the appetitive
elements seeks to satisfy the bodies pleasures.
- However, there is an hierarchy in these elements. The rational acts in the interest of the
whole. The spirited element is its close allies. The rationale makes the decisions and the
spirited puts them into effect. The both rule over the appetitive element.
- Justice thus can be seen as self discipline. To act according what is rational.
- When an individual is self disciplined, he will act according to justice.
Division of labour
The myth of metals: make people believe that this division is obtained by their gods and therefor part
of their nature.
- justice will be conceived when everybody acts according to their own task.
Justice in context
- If every individual would act in accordance to his or her place in labour, then we would all go
through life without making mistakes doing just that which we can successfully do.
- the rulers will rule wisely, the soldiers will preserve the city with courage and the farmers and
labourers will get their private work done and leave the administration to the guardians.
- those who know best where goodness lies must point a way for the rest.
In what year was the text written?
380 before Chr.
In what year was the text published?
380 before Chr.
During the time the book was published, what were the foremost developments of the society
which the author was part of?
Ancient greek where there was a direct democracy.
Lecture:
The great debate about justice
Puzzle:
- why do you obey your society’s rules?
- does obeying your society’s rules make you a just person?
What makes us decide to obey a rule or not? Is it possible to disobey some rules and still be a just
person etc?
Key themes and concepts:
- justice according to the sophist
(protagoras & Thrasymachus)
- Theory of the soul
- Division of labour
- Justice in context
- Allegory of the cave
- Role of education
- Philosophers as rules (guardians)
Greek Enlightenment: traditional assumptions were questions by different groups such as:
- The Sophists
- Historians
, - Dramatists
The sophist:
A group of professional intellectuals that introduced new methods of thinking and debating. They also
charged fees for their teachers. They could charge fees because they guaranteed their students success.
Foremost question:
Is it truly better to act in accordance with justice in society?
These rules are after all man made.
There were many differences in opinion among them.
Protagoras (sophist)
- traditional view regarding morals and politics.
- for a society to function it is critical that everybody knows how to behave correctly: that you
respect other people and that you are willing to fulfill obligations towards them. These trades
can be learned.
- there is a difference between practical matters like building a ship and practising medicine:
only experts can do these, and public matters that can be taught to all.
- Acting in a just manner is taught in society by fear of punishment.
- all are able to reach a basic level;
- some have greater talent and excel.
Talented politicians can be compared to talented musicians.
- justice will be learned in a society in the same way that children learn a language. However,
some people are able to excel and others are only able to reach a basic level.
- He sees no difficulty to different society adhering different notions of justice. There is not
one correct standard of justice that exists -> between different parts of the world you will
have different versions of justice.
- Teachers have a crucial role because they can provide talented politicians.
- Each society determines what justice is and what it means to act in a just manner. Something
that today is part of our elections: candidates debate what the best version of justice should be
and the electors vote.
- Problem: what can be done when a consensus what justice is is absent in a society?
- social relativism where each society can determine its own standard of justice seems to offer a
clear path of society where justice is merely the preference of its rulers.
,Thrasymachus:
Refutes Protagoras and states that justice is merely the advantage of the stronger over the week. Rules
are made by those who are stronger. Justice is the advantage of the stronger. The weak are those who
abide by justice. Thus, those who act in a just manner, act according and to the advantage of the
strong.
In such a society, injustice will be preferred by the weak because it offers more personal
advantage. Thrasymachus bases his view on justice on a narrow view of society. In his view society is
made out of individuals who have no regard for a common interest. All members of society are
always in competition with each other. As a result, politics is conflictual where all manipulate each
other.
These two sophist show opposing views of the debate concerning justice.
Socrates
- we only know him through the writings of others. He did not write anything down but took
part in dialogue.
- He dedicated his life to philosophy and did not charge for his teachings.
- He was the first to turn away from the concern of the nature to dedicate himself to human
affairs.
- He redefines justice by making it intrinsically valuable. He made a case for acting in a just
manner regardless of what the material benefits were.
- Society should seek to adhere to the undeniable truth.
- Socrates would pay with his life for the innovative view regarding justice which finds it
expression in the use of laws.
- He was charged for not believing in the greek gods and corrupting the youth through his
teachings.
- Through his admission of knowing nothing, he knew more than everybody else. “The only
true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing”.
- He is aware that the many have the power to put him to death, he does not feel the need to
convince them of his innocence. Rather he provokes them during the trial. The many
according to socrates do only what occurs to them regardless of the fact if they act according
to the truth or according to evil. They have no conception of intrinsic justice.
- Laws however are settled and every commitment to justice is seen through commitment to
laws.
- justice thus has an intrinsic value and the laws should be an expression of that intrinsic value.
, Plato
- one of socrates’ students was involved in an anti democratic movement that consisted of
oligarchs known as the thirty tyrants. We do not know if Plato was involved in this conflict.
- He established a school of philosophy known as the academy.
- the main question of the republic “why is justice better than injustice” brings along other
topics that are dealt with.
- only a dialogical conversation leads to the truth.
- Why did socrates speak for plato ?
- Plato introduces the reader to an ideal city he calls Callipolis. He thus introduces a utopian
account of the goodlife.
Theory of the soul
The manner in which an individual functions is bound to his character. The character follows from his
soul.
- Plato distinguishes between rational, spirited and appetitive elements of the soul. These
elements should each perform their proper task. Thus the rational element rules. The spirited
element makes sure the individual is courageous when he needs to be. And the appetitive
elements seeks to satisfy the bodies pleasures.
- However, there is an hierarchy in these elements. The rational acts in the interest of the
whole. The spirited element is its close allies. The rationale makes the decisions and the
spirited puts them into effect. The both rule over the appetitive element.
- Justice thus can be seen as self discipline. To act according what is rational.
- When an individual is self disciplined, he will act according to justice.
Division of labour
The myth of metals: make people believe that this division is obtained by their gods and therefor part
of their nature.
- justice will be conceived when everybody acts according to their own task.
Justice in context
- If every individual would act in accordance to his or her place in labour, then we would all go
through life without making mistakes doing just that which we can successfully do.
- the rulers will rule wisely, the soldiers will preserve the city with courage and the farmers and
labourers will get their private work done and leave the administration to the guardians.
- those who know best where goodness lies must point a way for the rest.
